Curse

Surgo · Mar 23, 2012, 02:12 PM // 14:12

With the recent melee and Assassin AI update, I've been looking at trying to do some form of "physway". I've run into a problem I'm not really certain how to solve though, one that's unique to physway -- the ridiculous amount of anti-melee in the game.

I have three physical attackers -- a dervish (me), an assassin, and a paragon. Players get Asura Scan, which is probably the best skill in the game for a physical attacker, so the dervish is covered. The assassin has Signet of Malice and the team build is meant to spread conditions, so in theory (if heroes can use it right) Zenmai can remove her own blind. The paragon has nothing, but...

I've got a single copy of Mend Body and Soul, and a copy of Foul Feast. These have pretty quick recharge. On top of what I already have to combat conditions, is this enough for even "elite" areas like DoA?

More troubling for me are the anti-melee hexes. I'm not really sure what's enough here, and the stuff I've found to deal with it has recharge that's a bit longer than I'd like. I have a single copy of Shatter Hex (8 seconds with FC) and a single copy of Cure Hex (12 seconds). That's pretty slow. Is there some better way, without consuming an elite slot, of dealing with hexes? Am I just going to need to find a way to fit more hex removal in? Is what I have actually enough?

I'm not too experienced with melee teams, so this has been a bit of a struggle. I'm honestly not sure it's worth it given how prevalent anti-melee is in the game (and heroes can't use Asura Scan). Any advice would be appreciated.

Lethal Primate · Mar 23, 2012, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Dealing with the melee hate in pve can be quite difficult. The best way IMO is just to go melee yourself and let the rest of the party be physical support. But that would be the easy way out. As for condition removal, you should have enough unless you go to a blind spam area (SoO comes to mind and DOA foundry).

Physicalway suffers the most from hexes I'd say (since condition removal is so easy). If you have an ER Prot spammer, you could take convert hexes. But the best way to deal with them is to just give every support character some kind of hex removal (if possible). Some of the best hex removal skills for physway imo are: Spotless Mind, Cure hex, Remove hex (simply because of the recharge), smite hex and shatter hex. My advise would be to take at least 4 single hex removing skills and 1 clutch removal skill (convert or PnH).

Hope this helps

Spiritz · Mar 23, 2012, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Lack of info will hinder replies - so
1. which or if all campaigns you have
2. which builds are being used - both heros and human.

Those 2 are crucial - not knowing builds means we cant offer help with them - we cant answer what we dont know.
On a side note - i used to use my sin with the old spiritway build ( 3 necros ) and tbh never really had any bad issues cept when i got enchant stripped but i always checked the zone(s) beforehand to know what im against.

Gabs88 · Mar 23, 2012, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Simply put, if there's too much anti phys in an area pick another build. I've looked over this myself and I don't think there's any reasonable way to do this for a general purpose PVE build.

Here's the dilemma the way I see it:
More Physical = More characters taking damage = More need for healing = Physical Characters having to deal enough damage to make up for the loss elsewhere.

Testing JFD Dagger Spammers vs Master of Damage they deal about 80% of the damage a human player would. But, they also start off slower dealing less damage the first seconds of the fight. And then stabilizing later on. (weird I know!)

But there's also more things to consider, such as the falloff from 1 vs 3 physical players. A single physical player can be thought of as a platform for balling foes, tanking for the team and dealing high damage through skills such as splinter weapon, shatter hex, smite condition and so on. As well as significantly increasing the teams effectiveness vs spell immune foes. There's just so much you can do with a single physical player that makes it worth it about a hundred times over.

With 3 though, there is a massive falloff. The mobs are likely to scatter more, there's going to be more fighting going on in different parts of the battlefield, you're going to have less hex removal per player, the effectiveness of each copy of splinter weapon goes down and more.

Anyhow, to avoid dragging this out forever. My conclusion is the following:
VS small groups such as the ones commonly seen in places such as Morostov Trail. You can potentially benefit from having several Physicals.
VS bigger groups such as the ones commonly seen in EOTN (4-8 foes per group) it is more benefitial to have a single physical combining a good defense with the ability to quickly trigger splinter weapon and demolish a single target (deep wound or JDF spam).
The more hexes and blind, the less benefit from multiple physicals.

All that said, in NM questing / campaign runs I've tested multiple physicals. And simply put because they take way less damage and the mobs also have less HP. A triple physical frontline can be extremely impressive.

KotCR · Mar 23, 2012, 03:10 PM // 15:10

At least three hex removal skills. At least one should be a hex-stack remover (one that can remove more than one at once), like one of the elites hex removal options or simply Convert Hexes, that you probably want to micro so the heroes don't waste it on removing insignificant hexes or single-hexes.

As for Condition Removal, it's generally easier to come by, faster on recharge and more powerful, aswell as having useful secondary effects like Healing gain or Energy recovery so you can get away with just two, and fitting them on your heroes shouldn't be a problem. I'd have thought Mend Body & Soul x2, or Mend Body & Soul, and Foul Feast, like you have, would be enough. Both can remove Condition stacks.

In heavier condition areas you may want one regular condition removal like MB&S still, and then one hardcore conditional removal, like Restore Condition, or my personal preferance, Song of Purification.

Cuilan · Mar 23, 2012, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Should point out none in areas where there aren't hexes and conditions that are hindering. You know...since nobody said it yet.

Gabs88 · Mar 23, 2012, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Should point out none in areas where there aren't hexes and conditions that are hindering. You know...since nobody said it yet.

Plain wrong, getting hexed a little is good. When you ball up the foes properly like a melee player should. You do great damage through shatter hex and smite condition / hex. For a physways these skills give a significant damage improvement.

Lanier · Mar 23, 2012, 06:30 PM // 18:30

For general purposes (because I dont switch skills between areas), I like 2 relatively spammy hex removal and 2 relatively spammy condition removal. In my current physway build, Iv got smite condition and MB&S for condition removal and smite hex and convert hexes for hex removal. The cool thing about these skills (and shatter hex, if using mesmers in physway is your sort of thing) is that they have nice side effects beyond the simple condition/hex removal.

Cuilan · Mar 23, 2012, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Plain wrong, getting hexed a little is good. When you ball up the foes properly like a melee player should. You do great damage through shatter hex and smite condition / hex. For a physways these skills give a significant damage improvement.

Sure I guess in areas that don't have hexes.

Gabs88 · Mar 23, 2012, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Sure I guess in areas that don't have hexes.

Thought about that before I posted. To the best of my knowledge, no such area exists. From the 4 man areas of Ascalon to the Crystal Desert to Kaineng City or the Shiverpeaks, all areas have hexes in some form or another.

Sometimes it's just a simple Parasitic Bond but that's enough to feed Shatter or Smite Hex.

There might be one or two in the entire game that I haven't though of, and that doesn't have any hexes at all. But that's simply put the exception that confirms the rule. Your point is moot

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 24, 2012, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

...When you ball up the foes properly like a melee player should...

Not everyone plays, or even wants to play that way.

Gabs88 · Mar 24, 2012, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Not everyone plays, or even wants to play that way.

Doesn't matter, if you're a melee player there's basically 2 ways to go about it. Straight ahead triple melee (pref players) and rush in with crazy raw DPS to burst down foes in several different locations at once.

Or single melee, tank ball and spike. What degree you wish to do this in depends mostly on yourself. Do you wish to ball up all the foes every time? Or do you ball up the majority of the foes quick and dirty and let the rest of them fly their separate ways.

Either way, the third option is not to give a shit, rush in with the entire team at once and watch the mobs fly off in every direction. If you wanna do this that's your choice, but it's a piss poor one and that's all there is to it.

ultimak719 · Mar 24, 2012, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Erm...well, I'm not sure what your playstyle is. But a good thing to do is to take a support paragon with Expel Hexes. That is easy hex removal. Also, binging an sos spirit spammer and a n/rt healer with mend body and soul takes care of your conditions. Bringing smiting hybrids (I like using a dom mesmer/smite support hybrid) with smite hex/condition will also help you out a lot.

Kirzath · Mar 25, 2012, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Pure Was Li Ming is an often overlooked skill for controlling massive influxes of conditions.

Akhnaton · Mar 26, 2012, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirzath

Pure Was Li Ming is an often overlooked skill for controlling massive influxes of conditions.

Just don't try that in areas with fragility and condition spreading (ex: Frigid Mandragors) :P

Thenameless Wonder · Apr 01, 2012, 08:15 PM // 20:15

^ as conditional removal isn't the main problem for physicals (well, blind being troublesome as well as cripple), melees have to worry about hexes such as clumsiness and empathy. If your running either any standard spirit build on a hero then mend body and soul becomes preferable because it doesn't use and elite slot and can remove 1+ conditions. I mean, that's what I do. Don't think I'll ever use that skill because I like my heroes to run with PwK but again, this is all player preference and playstyle. There is no right way to play the game

Azazello · Apr 04, 2012, 04:16 PM // 16:16

One copy of shatter is all I use. Mistrust, guilt, panic, and two power drains covers it pretty well, but I have a SoS if the physicals ever really get screwed. Lots of condition removal on the other hand, cripple and blind usually get spammed a lot more and have a lot bigger impact than most hexes in pve. Well, by lots I mean two copies of mbas, but with ten spirits, it's lots. So far the only place I've had any real trouble with hexes was defend droknars forge HM.